Podcast episode 17 | November 21 - 2023

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:13:22

Michael Cardoso 

You can fake a review, you can write anything you want online, you can smile for a pretty photo.

It might not represent what’s actually going on or what your brand actually stands for. It’s a lot harder to fake that in a video format.

00:00:17:22 – 00:00:40:09

Sylvia Wong

There’s been a huge rise in focus on video by tons of different platforms, which has us thinking, is it really important for marketers to start focusing on video in their marketing efforts? Today for our episode, we are talking about video marketing trends for 2024, and I am joined by our Lead Media Producer, Michael.

00:00:40:09 – 00:01:12:19

Sylvia Wong

I think in terms of like where we’re coming from here, there’s platforms like Meta where they used to be a photo prioritized platform. Everything was about posting the perfect grid. And now there’s a lot more effort put towards that short form video content. I think it’s very much coming from, you know, competing with TikTok and our attention spans and, you know, the I don’t know, whatever’s triggering off in people’s brains that has them addicted to their phones around movement and sound and everything.

00:01:12:19 – 00:01:25:06

Sylvia Wong

But it has us thinking about what we should be doing as marketers in terms of a focus. So, Michael, from your perspective, are you seeing a lot more demand and need for media? 

00:01:25:06 – 00:01:51:18

Michael Cardoso

Absolutely. I think it’s it’s just going to continue to become more prevalent as time goes on. And we see that in the trends. The big companies are now trying to have more of a online presence, not just on Web and not just about having that perfect Instagram page showcasing their products and services, but adding personality and trying to inject how they want people to see and interact with their brand into their social media.

00:01:51:18 – 00:02:16:06

Michael Cardoso

And the best way to do that and the way they have been doing that is through video. I think it was last year, a couple of years ago, we kind of saw the rise of all these TikTok accounts, the represented brands, where it was like oddly self-aware and a little bit self-deprecating sometimes, where it would be somebody posting I’m I’m the social media manager for X Brand.

00:02:16:06 – 00:02:39:02

Michael Cardoso

I’d like to interact with this so I don’t get fired. And obviously just playful and very planned, but it’s evidence that the trend is definitely shifting in favor of adding more personality to your content production. And the best way to do that is video, because you can fake a review, you can write anything you want online, you can smile for a pretty photo.

00:02:39:02 – 00:02:51:09

Michael Cardoso

It might not represent what’s actually going on or what your brand actually stands for. It’s a lot harder to fake that in a video format. So so I think we’re going to continue to see that that demand increase. 

00:02:51:09 – 00:03:05:13

Michael Cardoso

The content formats and the types of content, even just within video itself, I think we’re going to see change slightly and adapt over time. But video as a content format, it’s just going to increase.

00:03:05:13 – 00:03:35:05

Sylvia Wong

Yeah, I think what you’re touching on there with the like self-awareness, the authenticity of it, it’s almost like for the way that we’ve operated in social media for so long, it had gotten to a point where things were so curated, pictures were so perfect, face app, like things, things where you like tune your faces, use filters like it made everything kind of like flattened in a sense that has people craving the authenticity of video, right?

00:03:35:05 – 00:03:54:14

Sylvia Wong

Because I think if we separate maybe now, like short form from long form video, long form is like what we’re doing right now where we’re just going to simply, you know, talk. There’s a higher production value, like if anyone can, you know, kind of take in that the set is very much, you know, filled with lights. They see tons of like camera microphones, everything.

00:03:54:14 – 00:04:02:23

Sylvia Wong

This is like higher production value where short form sometimes is simply about just like picking up your phone and creating something.

00:04:02:23 – 00:04:07:13

Michael Cardoso

I think there’s two ways of thinking in terms of short form and long form content.

00:04:07:13 – 00:04:24:14

Michael Cardoso

I think a lot of people have it in their heads that attention spans are shrinking and we have to go shorter and shorter and make sure that your content is like it has to be engaging within the first half a second, which for a certain platforms is potentially true. And you see that in research that’s been done.

00:04:24:14 – 00:04:29:09

Sylvia Wong

And that’s appealing to algorithms though, right?

00:04:29:09 – 00:04:59:00

Michael Cardoso

But it’s not like long form content has no value and in many cases it actually has more value, not just in terms of what you are able to produce afterwards in terms of generating more content from that, but from the viewer’s perspective as well. In a recent study, it was found that longer form content over 60 minutes has a higher average retention rate than short form content by percentage.

00:04:59:00 – 00:05:14:14

Michael Cardoso

So, if somebody makes a one half hour sort of documentary on YouTube talking about some very niche topic, the average viewer is going to watch more of that by percentage than they would watch a video under one minute. 

00:05:14:14 – 00:05:18:03

Sylvia Wong

Right. Like getting to the end of that, right? 

00:05:18:03 – 00:05:29:13

Michael Cardoso

Yeah, I think those two types of content can both coexist and I think brands can take advantage of each of them in different ways. So it’ll be interesting to see how that continues to happen. 

00:05:29:13 – 00:05:46:01

Michael Cardoso

But I think this sort of mindset that it just has to keep being shorter, You can only do short form content. It’s important to consider, but it’s not the be all, end all. And in fact there’s been an increase in production of longer format content for brands in 2023, and I don’t think that’s going to decrease any time soon.

00:05:46:01 – 00:06:09:15

Sylvia Wong

Yeah, I think it’s really valuable to think about the context of that within any given industry or topic, because you’re right, sometimes, you know, things might take a lot more context to dive into, to get really into what you are explaining, whether that is educational, you’re trying to add value for your clients, your end user base and you know, 15 seconds is what I think of as like short form content sometimes.

00:06:09:15 – 00:06:23:19

Sylvia Wong

And for our clients it’s more like 30 seconds to a minute. But you’re right in that a minute can feel long if it’s in contrast to other things that are showing up in reels and TikTok and everywhere else where everything else is like 7 to 15 seconds long, right?

00:06:23:19 – 00:06:36:07

Michael Cardoso

The context is what’s interesting there. I’ve heard content instead of being divided into short form or long form content. Yeah, it’s being described as lean forward versus lean back content. 

00:06:36:07 – 00:07:00:02

Michael Cardoso

Lean forward content is stuff that you’re going to do while you’re looking over at a phone, stuff that you want, that instant gratification. You want to just get information quickly or just have information delivered to you in a way that feels good immediately. You don’t need to think about it that hard. So that’s the type of content that works really well in that super short format.

 00:07:00:02 – 00:07:12:05

Michael Cardoso

Things like TikToks, reels. The lean back content is the type of thing that you’re going to sit down for a long time and invest more of your energy into absorbing.

00:07:12:05 – 00:07:41:10

Michael Cardoso

I totally resonate with the idea of if a TikTok video is an interesting me in the first 5 seconds, you can be pretty sure I’m going to be swiping. But if I see like a two hour deep dive video on like some random niche topic, it doesn’t even need to be something I’m interested in. If it’s somebody that I know is going to tell it in an interesting way that I’m clicking that and I’m probably going to stick around the whole time because it’s just it’s the context of where people take in the content.

00:07:41:10 – 00:07:53:09

Michael Cardoso

And that’s not to say every brand should start making two hour documentaries, I don’t think that’s the answer. But it might be depending on what you do. So something to consider. 

00:07:53:09 – 00:08:04:21

Sylvia Wong

I know. I think though Lean forward and Lean Back is like for lean forward, it’s very much when you’re interacting with social media, you are actively kind of scrolling and commenting and hitting like and really interacting with it.

00:08:04:21 – 00:08:28:06

Sylvia Wong

Whereas where you’re talking about very clearly like YouTube and just cueing something up and, you know, making a favorites list of longer form content, it’s a lot more similar to a sit on your couch and watch TV experience in that TV watching experience compared to a, you know, social media and interacting and community experience is a completely different thing to analyze, right?

00:08:28:06 – 00:08:50:19

Michael Cardoso

Mm hmm. I think another way of thinking about it is like if you’re in conversation with someone and it’s somebody that you, you know well and somebody you care about their opinion. For me, anyways, I love to have long, deep conversations with people. And I can sit down with somebody for a couple of hours and just talk about one specific topic, niche or general.

00:08:50:19 – 00:09:21:10

Michael Cardoso

It’s something that I’m willing to do. But if it’s something that I’m not really interested in or it’s somebody I’m just passing by, I’m not necessarily going to interact with them anymore after that moment. Then I’m probably not going to like stop to have a two hour conversation with somebody out of nowhere. And I think it’s that that mindset shift that people need to be aware of is like where you’re meeting your your viewer, I guess, and whether you consider it as like a journey, marketing journey or your marketing funnel or, or you’re making content just to make content.

00:09:21:10 – 00:09:41:23

Sylvia Wong

Yeah, that is a really good way of thinking about it, because some of that shorter form content is maybe people’s introduction to your account, your brand, that first piece that kind of catches people’s attention. But the longer form stuff is, you know, very much for adding a larger amount of value, more context and going way more into depth, right?

00:09:41:23 – 00:10:06:09

Sylvia Wong

Like it’s like the surface level versus depth. I think the way that and vision like we had spent years at this point trying to figure out what is our video strategy. It’s been interesting to kind of explore, you know, right from the beginning, we’re like, do we just put some stories up on Instagram and go like lowest level of efforts and see where we can go from there?

00:10:06:09 – 00:10:27:03

Sylvia Wong

So I would say where we originally started, where I’m like, let’s put ourselves out there and humanize the brand a little bit and show, you know, who we are, what we like to talk about, what kind of value we can offer to our clients. Our first foray into that was me giving topics to George and saying like, record a quick story like 30 seconds to a minute.

00:10:27:03 – 00:10:45:09

Sylvia Wong

He would just prop up his phone and like, I have some of the old ones where he’s like really nervous and is like, Hey, like, so we’re just gonna talk about this quickly and the stories were easy enough to put up, but I think after we did, a couple of them were like, What’s the flow of this? Like, What are we trying to get out of it?

00:10:45:09 – 00:11:08:04

Sylvia Wong

And what exactly are we putting into practice by just kind of randomly putting up these stories and what information are we getting out of it? I think engagement was kind of there. Like we get a few comments, people being like, Yeah, great idea that you shared. But even with our kind of like lukewarm reception, I think George was like the thing we need is quality.

00:11:08:06 – 00:11:13:19

Sylvia Wong

Like the first thing that he was like, I want to, I want to really dive into video was quality.

00:11:13:19 – 00:11:47:11

Sylvia Wong

And so he hired you. Michael And from there we kind of like really catapulted the quality of our videos, the variations of them, which was all starting from, you know, talking head or just, you know, interviews with George in the office, walking around outside and expanding to this whole studio where we’re interviewing each other, where we’re talking to our clients, where we’re doing testimonials and stuff. How did that look when you first entered NVISION? And we’re kind of tasked with let’s get into video.

00:11:47:11 – 00:12:11:07

Michael Cardoso

Mm hmm. I think my first project actually with NVISION was, I guess you could say it’s sort of like a trial run the George gave me, was editing one of those videos that you instructed him to do. So I remember the starting point I had, like it was almost a good benchmark to to launch off other different types of content or different content strategies.

00:12:11:07 – 00:12:39:05

Michael Cardoso

But yeah, it started off with us just picking a bunch of topics. Me or other members of the team would help to brainstorm ideas, talking points. George would bring topics that he would like to address. I would put together a sort of production plan addressing some of those key points, maybe do some research to help George prepare to be on camera, and then it would be as simple as following George around the office, picking, uh, picking a spot outside the record.

00:12:39:05 – 00:13:16:02

Michael Cardoso

And over time, the quality as has improved and George has gotten so much more confident in front of the camera, and we started to introduce more people onto the camera, introduced formats like Brews and Buzzwords. And I think that’s something that I want a lot of businesses to take away from this. You don’t need to start at like a certain point, like you just need to start period and you don’t get to a point where you feel confident on camera, ready to go until you try it for a long time.

00:13:16:02 – 00:13:45:14

Michael Cardoso

Um, I think it was Dave Grohl who said something along the lines of I’m going to misquote him here. The best way to become like an awesome band is to really suck in a garage, but be very loud and confident about it for a long time and eventually start being good. So definitely misquoting him there, but something along those lines and I think the same is true for when you’re creating content.

00:13:45:14 – 00:13:47:23

Michael Cardoso

Hello Pippin.

00:13:47:23 – 00:13:59:05

Michael Cardoso

You want to start somewhere and wherever that is and to be somewhere where you feel confident enough to create it effectively and to want to continue to make it.

00:13:59:05 – 00:14:06:17

Michael Cardoso

So I think the key really is just getting started. Start somewhere and then you can fine tune your content over time.

00:14:06:17 – 00:14:19:19

Michael Cardoso

You can find what works best, what’s resonating with your audience and what makes the most sense strategically for the platforms that you want to be on. And then then you can just take it from there and make it make it better and better the longer you do it.

00:14:19:19 – 00:14:31:01

Sylvia Wong

Yeah, I think something really important to know about content, especially posting in social media, online blogging, etc., is you can try and have the perfect plan.

00:14:31:01 – 00:14:48:22

Sylvia Wong

You can try and set up a campaign and have all of the pieces in place. You can plan ahead for an entire year if you wanted to. But ultimately, once you start posting and you see how people react to it, you really, really have to consider the analytics and the insights that you’re getting from platforms to understand performance, right?

00:14:48:22 – 00:15:18:04

Sylvia Wong

Like we’re not going to pre-record tons and tons of videos and then see that like the way that we’ve done it just isn’t resonating with our audience because it’s not being dynamic and in the way that platforms are changing, like the industry is changing, The dynamic aspect of it means that like episode to episode, there’s going to be improvements every time in order to get that perfect tagline, the caption, the way we break down the content so that we’re improving each time that we go right.

00:15:18:04 – 00:15:27:12

Sylvia Wong

And I think that can only be done by posting, which you’re very right about acting imperfectly rather than, you know, making sure you’ve got the perfect plan in place. 

00:15:27:12 – 00:15:40:22

Michael Cardoso

Yeah, you’re never going to be ready like that. It’s of this sort of false vision people have in their heads. If I’m going to plan my content for the next year and I’m going to rehearse everything perfect, I’m going to have everything perfectly scripted.

00:15:40:22 – 00:16:00:15

Michael Cardoso

And from video number one, it’s going to look as good as video 100. And that’s just not realistic. And the reality is you’re never going to post anything. And if you do, it’s very likely that halfway through that that content plan, you’re going to be like, Oh, I wish I was changing some things. Now I feel like I’m trapped in this sort of thing.

00:16:00:15 – 00:16:26:23

Michael Cardoso

So you’ve got to be open to change this. This studio, for example, every video, I feel like I’m really happy with how this looks. And then before you shoot the next one too. But if I just move this line a little more over here. So so even the way you capture the content, the production of it, that that can change over time as well as the content itself. And I think it’s healthy to do that change.

00:16:26:23 – 00:16:42:21

Michael Cardoso

But you’re bringing up analytics before and you won’t see how people are engaging with your content, iIf you don’t post any content, right, you won’t know what’s resonating with people. So you have to take that that first step or you’re going to continue to not move, you’re going to stagnate, right?

00:16:42:21 – 00:17:04:21

Sylvia Wong

Yeah, it’s infinite chances for improvement, right? Like and those infinite chances are made in that like there’s so much volume of content out there in the world constantly. I think there was a statistic like the Domo yearly, like how much content is there in the world sort of thing? And I think the last time I looked at it was like 2019 or something.

00:17:04:21 – 00:17:42:19

Sylvia Wong

So essentially the statistic was like, We are exponentially creating like the amount of content online to the point where 90% of the content that is out there has been created in the last two years. So it’s so much of like that frequency and that wheel of creation that’s happening that I can’t even imagine with the rise of new platforms like, like new short form content, every piece of content being exponentially created means that it should almost feel like a relief that not everyone sees every piece of content that like you almost get that forgiveness of.

00:17:42:19 – 00:17:52:03

Sylvia Wong

If only a few people see those, let’s see like will improve from there. And whatever it is that goes viral one day is like it takes a lot of shots to maybe resonate out there right. 

00:17:52:03 – 00:18:01:01

Michael Cardoso

And that also means that you don’t need to invest a crazy amount right away in having the best cameras and the best lights and everything you can.

00:18:01:01 – 00:18:12:13

Michael Cardoso

Truly, I know it sounds cliche at this point, but you can capture amazing content with any smartphone these days. It doesn’t even need to be the newest iPhone or anything like really any any phone camera will do.

00:18:12:13 – 00:18:18:09

Michael Cardoso

I think the one consideration you have to make is how you want to present your brand or how you want your brand to be perceived.

00:18:18:09 – 00:18:49:10

Michael Cardoso

Because although your content doesn’t need to be perfect, the way that you present yourself, it does have an impact on how people perceive your your brand. Like you, you put the version of yourself online that you want people to, to to see and think about when they think of you. So that’s one thing to consider. But for the vast majority of businesses, if you’re just looking into getting started with content creation, producing your own videos, you don’t need to wait to invest in a big in a big setup.

00:18:49:12 – 00:19:11:15

Michael Cardoso

It can make sense in some cases, but you don’t have to. In our situation, one of the reasons we started investing in camera equipment was because it gave George more confidence. He felt like this was bigger production value. He wanted to prepare more. He felt more confident on camera. And so that might help some people in some cases, but that you can really start with anything.

00:19:11:15 – 00:19:14:12

Sylvia Wong

So let’s actually jump into statistics.

00:19:14:12 – 00:19:42:14

Sylvia Wong

I think it’s super interesting that in terms of video viewers, persons on average will watch 17 hours of online video per week, which is a ton. Like 17 hours is like that’s more than you’re like one hour of watching TV per week. It’s a lot of time invested. Says people watch videos for 84 minutes every day worldwide and that videos are twice as likely to be shared than any other type of content.

00:19:42:14 – 00:19:50:17

Sylvia Wong

So people are 52% more likely to share video content than other types of content like social posts, product pages and blog posts.

00:19:50:17 – 00:20:05:05

Sylvia Wong

So I think what also signaling is that a lot of companies are jumping on board with that. 52% of companies are creating videos to educate their audiences now and 96% of marketers say that video is an important part of their marketing strategy.

00:20:05:05 – 00:20:24:07

Sylvia Wong

So there are a lot of trends that we’re seeing where there’s just like an increased pickup in video creation. Obviously with yourself being, you know, our Lead Media Producer. Are you seeing that it’s like something that’s kind of a hurdle for a lot of clients to get into? 

00:20:24:07 – 00:20:38:06

Michael Cardoso

Yeah, I think a lot of people are intimidated to get into video and it’s it’s understandable why. It’s definitely more of an investment of time and energy than sharing photos or especially anything involving text post.

00:20:38:06 – 00:20:51:08

Michael Cardoso

I think a lot of people still see it, especially older generations, still see it as like it’s like another version of TV. It’s like not everybody would be comfortable like doing an interview, a televised interview.

00:20:51:08 – 00:21:02:01

Michael Cardoso

And by putting yourself on the Internet, it’s like it feels like a big thing for a lot of people. And it doesn’t need to be a a big thing, for lack of a better words.

00:21:02:01 – 00:21:18:15

Michael Cardoso

I think if you treat it as you’re just building up people’s knowledge of of your personality or persona, your brand that you want to put forward and not like a this is my statement about who I am, period.

00:21:18:15 – 00:21:44:20

Michael Cardoso

And this is what I stand for on one video. It takes away the intimidation a bit like we talked about having casual conversations with people. Your first time meeting somebody, there’s for sure a first impression that happens, but you don’t need to feel like the version of yourself that you present to that person is all they will ever know of you, or that they will never continue to develop their understanding of you as a person and what you believe in and what you stand for.

00:21:44:20 – 00:21:56:01

Michael Cardoso

So I think I think definitely it’s intimidating for a lot of brands and individuals to get into. But again, you kind of just got to got to do it. You got to get over that. 

00:21:56:01 – 00:22:15:18

Sylvia Wong

I think like where you’re going with that is like if for a lot of our clients, if they feel like they do one about video, one explainer video about their product, there’s such high stakes because that’s that one piece of video, like it’s there 100% of everything that’s in their digital footprint.

00:22:15:18 – 00:22:36:10

Sylvia Wong

Whereas you and I recording this video, we’re like, This is one of 100 pieces of content that we’re going to be in, that we’re going to record, that there’s going to be many more. And so it lowers the stakes there versus feeling like, Oh my God, this is everything that’s ever going to define us, which is a lot of pressure on like you know, the production of one or two videos.

00:22:36:10 – 00:22:59:09

Michael Cardoso

It is. I think sometimes those videos can be really helpful, especially in web use cases, because usually the context people are seeing that content is they’ve already seeked you out, they’re already interested in whatever you do. And by the time they’re watching your about video, if they’re going to watch the whole thing, they’re already invested. They already care about whatever it is you’re doing.

00:22:59:09 – 00:23:29:07

Michael Cardoso

So in that sense, it can take a little bit of pressure off. But also recognizing that most people aren’t going to be watching those videos out of out of nowhere. So by putting a focus more on creating content that’s valuable for your consumers or your viewers, it allows you to sort of just focus on one small thing at a time versus needing to make this big this big statement piece.

00:23:29:07 – 00:23:56:03

Michael Cardoso

And again, those can be awesome. But I think for for brands just wanting to get started, pick one topic, pick one talking point, pick one thing you’re passionate about or you can educate on or you can entertain your viewers with and do as good a job as you can of delivering that narrative on camera and then see how that goes, see how people respond and do another one of those videos and tailor it over time.

00:23:56:03 – 00:24:11:11

Michael Cardoso

And you’re going to notice that if you’re paying attention to how people are engaging or paying attention to the analytics and you’re trying to make incremental improvements that the quality of your content is just going to increase more and more and more.

00:24:11:11 – 00:24:28:09

Michael Cardoso

And if you do need to make one of those big intense statement piece videos, then think of it in a completely different context. It’s like, not all of your videos have to be that big statement. So you can when you’re diving into it, it doesn’t need to be super intense right away.

00:24:28:09 – 00:24:46:13

Sylvia Wong

Yeah, I’m I’m essentially hearing from you that there’s got to be a video strategy around more than a single facet, right? Like if we are creating like these about videos, if we’re, you know, when we do headshots for clients and we kind of create things that are assets for their site, it is such a different concept around content.

00:24:46:13 – 00:25:23:13

Sylvia Wong

Then if you’re creating content for an ongoing flow of posting and creating a pulse on social media showing that you’re still alive and commenting on, you know, recent industry news, making sure that you’re staying on top of updating even what’s going on with yourselves as businesses, right? So I think those are like really different pieces of content that are necessary to do like it’s it’s very much so if we’re talking about trends for the next year, it means that almost all brands have to get involved in some form of ongoing content creation.

00:25:23:13 – 00:25:34:19

Michael Cardoso

And to that point, you can also take advantage of different methods of capturing content to limit the amount of effort you need to put in to get a lot out of it.

00:25:34:19 – 00:26:00:00

Michael Cardoso

So if you’ve been creating content for for a long time, then you’re starting to see the patterns of what people are engaging with. And you know, for example, you want to make more short form content, but you don’t have the time to shoot ten individual videos in a week or whatever the case is. Maybe that’s your opportunity to do sort of a sit down conversational video like this, do some long form content.

00:26:00:00 – 00:26:27:22

Michael Cardoso

If the long form piece works out great, but consider it as a tool that you can leverage in other other contexts on other platforms. So like this video we’re filming here, we’re going to edit it, cut it together, export it as a full length YouTube video. It’s going to exist on audio platforms. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and we’re also going to get a ton of social media clips out of it.

00:26:27:22 – 00:26:44:11

Michael Cardoso

And I think if you’re creating content with that strategy in mind of where you want it to exist and who you want to listen to it or watch it, you can take, again, more pressure off yourself by it, by just thinking about it with that strategic lens.

00:26:44:11 – 00:27:01:16

Sylvia Wong

It was so interesting talking to you about all these different forms of content because I always learn new, different frameworks that I might not have thought about. Michael, Do you have any takeaways for our clients marketers out there on video marketing in 2024? 

00:27:01:16 – 00:27:11:23

Michael Cardoso

Yeah, for sure. I think a few things that you need to consider is one, consider your audience and how they’re taking in your content.

00:27:11:23 – 00:27:55:20

Michael Cardoso

The audience, first of all, that you want to attract and the people that are engaging with your content, what’s working for them and fine tune that. You want to make sure that you’re working with the tools you have and optimizing your production strategy based on what works best for you and the type of content you want to create. And really the key point in all of this is just getting started at some point because you won’t be able to work on those those strategies, those shooting techniques, the style of content until you have some sort of a starting point, a frame of reference, a benchmark. So just get started and see, see what’s working and keep going.

00:27:55:20 – 00:28:01:03

Sylvia Wong

That’s always the lesson, right in marketing. Just do it and just measure after that. 

00:28:01:03 – 00:28:02:21

Michael Cardoso

That’s a good slogan, we should use that. 

00:28:02:21 – 00:28:05:03

Sylvia Wong

We should use that. Do you think anyone has that yet?

00:28:05:03 – 00:28:06:02

Michael Cardoso

I don’t think so. 

00:28:06:02 – 00:28:12:05

Sylvia Wong

What’s our usual conclusion, bye!